Nouveaux messages
Durant votre absence
Derniers sujets
» Souls Rescue
Mar 15 Nov - 22:06 par oldteen

» DF 0.43.04 est là !
Sam 15 Oct - 13:00 par Novak666

» Le Roguelike Bundle
Lun 3 Oct - 14:56 par Novak666

» Bonjour a tous !
Lun 26 Sep - 20:10 par Aristoxène (jbbourgoin)

» Les morts alakon
Jeu 8 Sep - 10:08 par Aristoxène (jbbourgoin)

» illumine, un roguelike-like
Dim 28 Aoû - 3:11 par Dejima

Sondage

Qui veut un t-shirt HJKL ?

63% 63% [ 5 ]
25% 25% [ 2 ]
13% 13% [ 1 ]
0% 0% [ 0 ]
0% 0% [ 0 ]
0% 0% [ 0 ]

Total des votes : 8

Ceux qui commencent le plus de sujets
Guryushika
 
Stdrome
 
ZeBlob
 
Kasaris
 
Belphegor
 
lonewolfs
 
xboxut
 
Krabator
 
Novak666
 
loudo
 


Compilation de conseils donnés aux débutants

Voir le sujet précédent Voir le sujet suivant Aller en bas

Compilation de conseils donnés aux débutants

Message par Gobbopathe le Mar 27 Jan - 19:03

Bonjour

Voici un lien (en anglais) compilant quelques conseils et rappels de règles pour les débutants (et les moins débutants, suivez mon regard) à mon avis très intéressants à intégrer.

C'est mal, mais je fais un copié collé

Code:
Rule -1: Don't play Crawl while tired/apathetic/distracted/otherwise low energy if you don't want to die. If you barely have enough energy to play Crawl, by definition you only have enough energy to make thoughtless plays, and you die in Crawl when you stop thinking and the game catches you.
(8:50:09 AM) Patashu: Ok, I'll talk tactics (mostly melee positioning stuff) now

(8:51:07 AM) Patashu: 1) Rule 0: You should almost never move towards an enemy that is in your line of sight. It's not due to one reason, but it's a heuristic due to a few different reasons. In general, you usually want to retreat from an enemy you have just seen rather than approach it.

(8:52:47 AM) Patashu: 2) How noise works: Stuff like melee that isn't stabbing, most offensive spells, monsters shouting and you shouting creates a noise that radiates out in a circle and tries to alert monsters. Monsters alerted will be in a 'hasn't noticed you' state, but will be awake and will beeline towards the center of the noise, and then start wandering. If that brings you to their LoS, then they're only a stealth check away from starting to hunt you, but if it doesn't, they won't go looking for you because they don't know where to look, they'll just go back to random movement.
(8:53:29 AM) Patashu: So there's no such thing as 'pack coherence' in that you can get the attention of the first orc you see, beeline on a retreat path, and after 8+ tiles let it come to you and engage, and the other orcs will either have gone to the original noise and given up or not noticed at all depending
(8:55:06 AM) Patashu: This leads to the general framework for dealing with monsters that are or may be in dangerous groups: 'lure/split'. The moment you see a monster, stop moving towards it. If it hasn't noticed you yet, throw a stone/other ranged attack at it so it notices you (a trick called shoutless - if a monster is in wandering state and you hit it first, it never shouts, it always just silently goes to hunting state). Now back up 8-16 tiles towards a safe escape path (towards stairs, doesn't go through/towards unexplored territory), breaking LoS with corners/doors if you can. Let the one or two monsters come to you. Deal with them as an isolated, safe incident that you know won't attract anything else with the noise. Rest, repeat.
(8:55:57 AM) Patashu: If you don't do lure/split, and instead run at monsters on the edge of unexplored territory and fight them then and there (or even nearby), you'll feel like every battle is an endless torrent of enemies and huge groups streaming in, because the noise of the battle 1) attracts enemies in the unexplored territory 2) they see you 3) they join in the battle guaranteed
(8:56:42 AM) Patashu: Doing lure/split also means you can use things like berserk/all your MP in more comfort and safety, because you are almost guaranteed that no other enemies will show up after the battle ends

(8:58:48 AM) Patashu: 3) Doors are OP
(8:59:59 AM) Patashu: 3a) A surprising number of monsters can't do anything about doors. Anything that has hands can open them, but basically any animal or monster can't, even things like drakes, dragons and elephants that you wouldn't expect to be stopped by a door (the unique Xtahua is a notable exception, being a dragon that can open doors - however, the unique Prince Ribbit, a blink frog, cannot)
(9:00:39 AM) Patashu: 3b) If the monster is the same speed as you, you can close the door as fast as it can open it. This leads to a technique called 'door dancing', where as long as you and the monster are the only thing around the door, you can repeatedly close the door to recover HP/MP/stall for time otherwise.
(9:00:55 AM) Patashu: 3c) If you just opened a door and see a bunch of shit you don't want to deal with, the first step is usually closing the door to break LoS
(9:02:21 AM) Patashu: 3d) If your stealth is meaningful, breaking LoS with an enemy is a requirement for it to forget about you/stop hunting about you, so if you close doors on enemies with good stealth some of them will stop hunting you as you keep doing this, and since it takes them just as long to open it as you did to close it, it's not 'losing turns'

(9:03:52 AM) Patashu: 4) Energy randomization. In Crawl, for monster movement only, there is a random chance that the monster movement will happen 10% faster or slower. These 10% fasters and slowers add up, and eventually the monster will fall behind a tile or advance an extra tile. (If you see one happen, the other is likely to happen again soon, due to the energy randomization going in the opposite direction.) This also applies for opening/closing doors, but it doesn't apply for the monster attacking or casting. If a monster suddenly gains or loses ground on you, this is probably why.
(9:04:55 AM) Patashu: This is what makes the smallest case of 'pillar dancing', where the pillar is only one tile wide, not work reliably (but larger pillars are usually fine depending on the monster), and it is also why 'door dancing' will eventually fail with the monster stepping into the door after opening it on the same turn

(9:08:43 AM) Patashu: 5) Corners are OP. Going around a corner, like a door, is one of many ways to 'break LOS' (there is also fog/smoke/steam, allies/summons, blinking/teleporting away, wielding a lantern of shadows, etc). A monster with broken LOS has to come up to one tile away from you (if it's a tight 90 degree turn) or even next to you (if it's a tight 180 degree turn) before it can fight you again, and this lets you maximize the amount of time you are meleeing them from if you want to kill them, or maximize the amount of time they can't see and thus shoot at you if you want to run away from them.
(9:09:46 AM) Patashu: (also, don't forget about lure/split - you might want to not stop at the first corner/door, but back up 8+ tiles to a corner/door closer to the stairs, so you're not just breaking LoS BUT splitting the group at the same time)

(9:12:21 AM) Patashu: 6) Weapon swap trick. This only works on monsters that have a slower-than-you-can-take-a-step melee attack, due to having a very heavy melee weapon in their hands (ogres and their clubs are the most common reason). Here's how it works: After said monster swings, it takes more than 1.0 of a turn before it can take its next move. With the monster next to you, swap weapons or take off/put on one piece of jewellery (both are the fastest action you can do with any character) until the monster swings. Step away. A gap will almost always form. Why would you want a gap? A few good reasons are 1) You want to take the stairs (if the monster is not next to you when you START taking the stairs it cannot follow) 2) You want to cast conjure flame or otherwise make a summon in the tile between you both that requires an open tile
(9:14:56 AM) Patashu: Btw, a monster with a weapon in its hands is a lot more dangerous than one without, instead of doing 1d(hands damage) then subtracting 1d(your AC) it does 1d(hands damage + base damage of weapon) then subtracts 1d(your AC)
(9:15:02 AM) Patashu: (Base damage of the weapon being what it says when you examine it)
(9:15:27 AM) Patashu: And brands work for enemies the same way they work for hands, so a monster with a glowing/runed/shiny weapon might be packing electrocution or distortion

(9:20:43 AM) Patashu: 7) Monster blocking tricks. There are a few ways you can get monsters to unhelpfully block other monsters:
7a) If you're standing next to a sufficiently 'respected' monster that is not hellfire resistant, enemies won't cast hellfire at you (because it is area of effect) (in particular, deep elf sorcerers are not themselves hellfire resistant, so they will never hellfire you in melee, except maybe to suicide?) (there are some other kinds of area of effect attacks that this will work with, but hellfire is the most notable example because it's really dangerous)
7b) Monsters that are approaching you tend to funnel towards the orthogonals ('enemy funneling rule'), so if there is an enemy on that orthogonal, enemies behind it will lose LoF and not be able to cast LoF requiring spells at you (you can also do this on a diagonal, but it's really stupid to visualise if it will work or not, so it becomes probabilistic trick if you don't have a lot of enemies on that diagonal for blocking)
7c) Stronger monsters will push past weaker monsters to get into combat with you... BUT, if the monster is confused/paralyzed/petrified/constricted/netted/batty (bat, harpy, unseen horror, etc) then the monster cannot be pushed past!

(9:26:08 AM) Patashu: Cool Folly of friendship trick. Monsters that are animal intelligence or higher, if they see another monster behind them that would like to join the melee but is chokepointed and can't reach you, they will step to another tile adjacent to you so that that monster can also attack you. So imagine there's two orcs next to the 'elbow' of a corner and you're fighting the first one on the diagonal. Eventually it will decide to step into the elbow of the corner instead of attacking back so its friend can step in. Now take a step back. You have essentially gotten a free hit without retaliation when this happened. Doesn't sound like much - until you realize that if you have a large loop of sharp corners to pillar dance the orcs through, you can do folly of friendship trick over and over.
(9:27:03 AM) Patashu: (The corollary of folly of friendship trick is that you should never stand in the sharp elbow of a corner while fighting a group of enemies, because eventually the front enemy will move to trap you into that elbow - but being in the sharp elbow of a corner is bad for other reasons too, it's usually a wasted move that would be better spent cutting the corner with a diagonal so you are moving/escaping/breaking LoS faster)
(9:28:54 AM) Patashu: This is a minor trick relative to the previous 7

(9:34:01 AM) Patashu: 9) Hack and back. This tactic requires you to attack (thus know your weapon delay) faster than the enemy moves, so it usually only applies to zombified/skeletal enemies, elephant slugs, goliath beetles and early game worms. If you wait near a slooow monster until it steps next to you, hit it with your sufficiently low delay weapon and then walk away and repeat, it will never hit you once. (EDIT: In 0.15 most slower-than-you melee-only monsters are being removed, but you can still create hack and back situation with haste or by slowing the enemy.)

(9:29:48 AM) Patashu: Ok, now let's talk about skilling

(9:30:21 AM) Patashu: 1) Here is how you skill in Crawl. You raise your killdudes skill until your killdudes options are online. Then you train the skills that help you not die to dudes. If in the future you're having trouble killing dudes again, swap back to killdudes skills.
(9:31:42 AM) Patashu: 2) Melee weapons have a concept called 'min delay'. Examine the weapon and look at what its delay is - every 2 skill for that weapon, it will drop by 0.1, until it reaches 0.7 (if it is 1.4 or heavier) or half the original rounded down (if it is 1.3 or lighter, e.g. a 1.0 weapon reaches 0.5 after 10 skill, and a 2.0 weapon reaches 0.7 after 26 skill)
(9:32:15 AM) Patashu: The closer you are to getting a weapon to min delay, the more rapidly training it and using it gets better - until you reach min delay, after which the benefits of further training that weapon skill are a lot more marginal, so unless you can find a heavier weapon to swap to, you should train notdietodudesskills now
(9:32:52 AM) Patashu: (Also, the advantage of a heavy weapon's higher base damage isn't just a constant addition of damage - the base damage is multiplied by your skills, whereas enchantment and slaying damage is just added on unmultiplied, so heavier weapons will hit a lot harder than the numbers indicate, if you can get them to respectable minimum delay
(9:35:33 AM) Patashu: Also, random comment, the skill 'evocations' improves elemental evokables (that go in the misc category of your inventory), rods and wands by a LOT, but ofc if you're training evocations that's exp not going anywhere else, for something that can run out, so it's an opportunity cost thing, but a bit of evo makes wands a lot better

(9:39:27 AM) Patashu: Also, how to handle the Identification Minigame in Crawl:
1) Read all unidentified scrolls when you're not in danger to ID (the floor is 100% cleared - otherwise teleportation could put you in the middle of angry monsters)
2) Use identify scrolls ASAP on unidentified potions in your inventory, don't quaff potions to find out what they are unless it's literally the only way to not die left
3) Once you have most/all of the potions out of the way, you can start using identify scrolls on other stuff
4) AS LONG AS you have one or more remove curse scrolls available, don't use identify on weapons/armour/jewellery to identify them, put them on first to get a wear-identification. (The only thing you need to worry about are weapons of distortion, so don't wield random junk ego weapons unless you'd be happy with being stuck with them as distortion until xl18 or so)
5) Zap unidentified wands the moment you see them, if you're playing 0.14 or later you don't need a target, they identify automagically.
Code:


I also think that your first win should be Minotaur or Gargoyle Berserker, because they and their god's abilities are tuned for melee fighting and it forces you to make use of all melee tactics and positioning techniques, while at the same time not having to worry very hard about skilling or building your character (just always pick dex for the stat, always wear the heaviest armour you can find and the biggest weapon that you've trained to mindelay, train weapons until mindelay then swap to fighting/armour and later dodging, maybe evo if you find good evokables, that's basically it already!). You can of course do your first win with anything, but then you are learning two things at once, both how to play Crawl and how this specific start needs to be built and played to survive well.

EDIT: Forgot this part:
  Code:
Code:
(9:56:41 AM) Patashu: Also, in Crawl your HP melts very fast and restores very slow
(9:57:02 AM) Patashu: If a fight could potentially go south, at 100% hp you should already be acting cautiously/safely, making sure you have a good retreat line to the stairs, thinking about what you'll do if it starts to get hairy, etc
(9:57:15 AM) Patashu: At 75% hp you should already be ready to use consumables/abilities/powers or think about retreating
(9:57:32 AM) Patashu: At 50% hp your life is in danger and you should treat the situation like it could kill you right now
(9:57:57 AM) Patashu: Don't let it drop any lower because then you don't have any 'buffer' left at all, a lucky hit can do 20~ and later in the game 50++ damage

Gobbopathe
Halfling Warper lvl 19
Halfling Warper lvl 19

Messages : 186
Points : 1147
Réputation : 4

Voir le profil de l'utilisateur

Revenir en haut Aller en bas

Re: Compilation de conseils donnés aux débutants

Message par Stdrome le Mar 27 Jan - 21:40

Au vue du titre j´avais cru à un sujet sur la compilation logiciel Very Happy

Stdrome
Archeologist Collector lvl 25
Archeologist Collector lvl 25

Messages : 383
Points : 1458
Réputation : 8
Age : 29
Localisation : Appuis sur Maj + x et regarde sa carte...

Voir le profil de l'utilisateur

Revenir en haut Aller en bas

Re: Compilation de conseils donnés aux débutants

Message par Gobbopathe le Mar 27 Jan - 23:13

Un jour peut-être trouverai-je le courage de tenter la compilation d'un roguelike, mais j'ai aucun background de codeur, donc pour le moment ça se limitera à un retour d'expérience de joueur Smile

Gobbopathe
Halfling Warper lvl 19
Halfling Warper lvl 19

Messages : 186
Points : 1147
Réputation : 4

Voir le profil de l'utilisateur

Revenir en haut Aller en bas

Re: Compilation de conseils donnés aux débutants

Message par Kasaris le Mer 28 Jan - 0:08

j'ai pas tout regardé, mais ça à l'air méga-intéressant !

#.....@....................>..........k.........#
"Mourir en héros, c'est mourir quand même"



"You are so smart and ridiculously good looking, you should change your name to Kasaris."
Urban Dictionary.

Kasaris
The smartest and wisest being in existence
The smartest and wisest being in existence

Messages : 917
Points : 2684
Réputation : 11
Age : 26
Localisation : ^X + HJKL

Voir le profil de l'utilisateur

Revenir en haut Aller en bas

Re: Compilation de conseils donnés aux débutants

Message par Guryushika le Mer 28 Jan - 21:43

Bien cool tout ça, ça permet de réviser et d’améliorer ses connaissances.
Je pense que je vais me faire chier à la traduire avec plaisir Smile (oui c’est contradictoire!)
Merchi Gobbopathe, je me mets en position latéral de sécurité PLS

#.....@....................>..........k.........#

Guryushika
Au dessus c’est Zot !
Au dessus c’est Zot !

Messages : 912
Points : 2595
Réputation : 29
Age : 39
Localisation : Brignoles

Voir le profil de l'utilisateur http://guryushika.com

Revenir en haut Aller en bas

Re: Compilation de conseils donnés aux débutants

Message par Kasaris le Jeu 29 Jan - 11:19

En tout cas, les conseils sont plutôt de bons sens et s'adressent à pas mal de niveaux différents, débutants comme confirmés.

#.....@....................>..........k.........#
"Mourir en héros, c'est mourir quand même"



"You are so smart and ridiculously good looking, you should change your name to Kasaris."
Urban Dictionary.

Kasaris
The smartest and wisest being in existence
The smartest and wisest being in existence

Messages : 917
Points : 2684
Réputation : 11
Age : 26
Localisation : ^X + HJKL

Voir le profil de l'utilisateur

Revenir en haut Aller en bas

Re: Compilation de conseils donnés aux débutants

Message par Contenu sponsorisé Aujourd'hui à 13:08


Contenu sponsorisé


Revenir en haut Aller en bas

Voir le sujet précédent Voir le sujet suivant Revenir en haut

- Sujets similaires

 
Permission de ce forum:
Vous ne pouvez pas répondre aux sujets dans ce forum